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êîå-÷òî ïðî íàóãðèìà Ìèìà
Òåëü Ìî Õàð: Ðàçäåëèì íàìåêè íà 3 îñíîâíûõ ôàçû/ôðàçû. Ïåðâàÿ - ïîçíàêîìèò òîëêèíèñòîâ ñ ëè÷íîñòüþ çëîïîëó÷íîãî äëÿ íèõ Ìèìà, êîòîðûé è âïðàâäó ÿâëÿåòñÿ êëþ÷åâûì ïåðñîíàæåì äëÿ ïîíèìàíèÿ ìíîãèõ ëþáîïûòíûõ òàéí Ñèëüìà. Ïî ìåðå îòûñêàíèÿ â òåêñòå Ïðîôåññîðà ýòèõ àáçàöåâ è ñâåäåíèé îíè áóäóò ïîñòåïåííî ðàñòè äî óðîâíÿ ïîíèìàíèÿ ìèðà, áîëåå õàðàêòåðíîãî óæå äëÿ Ïåðóìîâà. Ïåðâûé - ïðîñòåíüêèé âîïðîñåö - äëÿ Onotoley: Êàêîå îòíîøåíèå Ìèì èìååò ê ÷åëîâåêó Òóðèíó Òóðàìáàðó è ýëüôèéñêîìó ëó÷íèêó Áåëåãó Êóòàëèîíó? Îòûñêàòü ýòî â òåêñòå - ÷òî ðàç ïëþíóòü. Òàê ÷òî åñëè Onotoley íå ñïðàâèòñÿ - îñòàëüíûå òîëêèíèñòû ìîãóò åìó è ïîìî÷ü.
Ðóñàëêà_íà_îáó÷åíèè: ãîñòü ïèøåò: õîðîøèé ñòàðûé ïåðåâîä Íåêîððåêòíûé. Íîëäîð - ýòî óæå ìíîæåñòâåííîå ÷èñëî, à "íîëäîðû/íîëäîðöû" - ýòî âîîáùå ñêîëüêî òîãäà ïîëó÷àåòñÿ?
ãîñòü: ãëàâíîå ÷èòàëîñü õîðîøî
Onotoley : Ìåãàýëüô-âàððèîð ïèøåò: Îíîòîëèé - ïðîñðàë òåìó, íè÷åãî ýòîãî íå çíàåò Äà, ÷åðò ïîäåðè, â îòëè÷èè îò óáîãåíîâ ÿ ìîãó ïðèçíàòü ÷òî ÿ ÷òî òî çàáûë. Èáî ïîñëåäíèé ðàç ïåðå÷èòûâàë ñèëüìðèëëèîí ãîäà äâà íàçàä, à êíèãè ïîä ðóêîé ñåé÷àñ íåò. Gomozebra ïèøåò: Óþòíîå Ñðåäèçåìüå?  êîòîðîì ñâåòëûå ýëüôû áîðþòñÿ ñ òåìíûìè îðêàìè? Íó, äà, â òàêîì ïî-äåòñêè ïðèìèòèâíîì è óþòíåíüêîì Ñðåäèçåìüå íîðìàëüíûì ëþäÿì äåëàòü äåéñòâèòåëüíî íå÷åãî. Ê ñ÷àñòüþ, Òîëêèí íå ïèñàë ïîä äèêòîâêó Îíîòîëèÿ. 1) Âî-ïåðâûõ ïèñàë è íå òîëüêî îí. 2) Âî-âòîðûõ òàêîå ïîíèìàíèå ñðåäèçåìüÿ - "ñâåòëûå ýëüôû áîðþòñÿ ñ òåìíûìè îðêàìè" - äîíåëüçÿ ïðèìèòèâíî. ×åëîâåêó äóìàþùåìó ÷òî àðäà ïðî ýòî ÿ íå çàâèäóþ. 3) ×òî áû óçíàòü ÷òî íà îñíîâå ñðåäèçåìüÿ ìîæíî ñäåëàòü ÷òî-òî äåéñòâèòåëüíî èíòåðñíîå, ñì âíèçó 4) ??? 5) PROFIT!!! P.S. ãîñòü ïèøåò: ãëàâíîå ÷èòàëîñü õîðîøî Íó õîòü íå "Íîëäîðèàíå", íà òîì ñïàñèáî Êîð, çàëîãèíñÿ!
ãîñòü: Åù¸ îäèí áîëüíîé.Ó âàñ òóò âîçäóõ âëèÿåò?
Onotoley : Õì... ïðîøó ïðîùåíèÿ, ïî÷èòàë âàñ, íà êîðà íå ïîõîæå, ðåøèòåëüíî. Âû çàðåãåñòðèðóéòåñü õîòü. Àòî ãîñòü òî îäèí êàêáû, êòî óãîäíî ìîæåò îò âàøåãî èìåíè ïèñàòü.
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Áîãåí: Ðóñàëêà_íà_îáó÷åíèè ïèøåò: Íîëäîð - ýòî óæå ìíîæåñòâåííîå ÷èñëî, à "íîëäîðû/íîëäîðöû" - ýòî âîîáùå ñêîëüêî òîãäà ïîëó÷àåòñÿ? Ïðåâðàùåíèå àíãëèéñêîãî â ðóññêèé - äëÿ íåêîòîðûõ íåðàçðåøèìàÿ ïðîáëåìà. Noldor - è åäèíñòâåííîå ÷èñëî, è ìíîæåñòâåííîå - îäíîâðåìåííî. Elf - è ìóæñêîé ðîä, è æåíñêèé. ×òî ýòî îçíà÷àåò? À ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî ìîæíî ãîâîðèòü è Îí - ýëüô, è Îíà - ýëüô. Ãîâîðèòü "ýëüôèíÿ" - íå ïðàâèëüíî, íî óäîáíî. È ìû òàê äåëàåì. Ìû îáëàäàåì Ïðàâîì ïîíèìàòü è èíòåðïðåòèðîâàòü òåðìèí ñ ÷óæîãî ÿçûêà òàê, êàê õîòèì.
Áîãåí: Òî÷íî òàê æå è ñëîâà íàóãðèìà Ìèìà ïðî òî, ÷òî åãî ïðåäêè ïîñòðîèëè Íðàãîòðîíä íåêîòîðûå ïðîïóñêàþò ìèìî ñâîåãî âíèìàíèÿ. È ó íèõ åñòü íà ýòî ïðàâî - ïîíèìàòü Òîëêèíà òàê, êàê õîòÿò. À íåêîòîðûå - ïðèäàþò çíà÷åíèå è ñëîâàì Ìèìà, è íåèçâåñòíûì Ìîðìåãèëó è Áåëåãó ëåñíûì êëóáíÿì, êîòîðûå îí íàøåë. È ìû äåëàåì èç ýòîãî âûâîä, ÷òî íàóãðèìû âðîäå Ìèìà - äåéñòâèòåëüíî îáèòàëè â Ñðåäèçåìüå äî ëþäåé, è äî ýëüôîâ. È âîçìîæíî, ÷òî èìåííî îíè ïîñòðîèëè è Íàðãîòðîíä. Ýëüôû - îíè æå ó Òîëêèíà è âïðàâäó - íå Ñòðîèòåëè. Îíè - ëèøü Óêðàøàòåëè. Ïðèøëè â ïîñòðîåííûé íàóãðèìàìè Íàðãîòðîíä, óêðàñèëè åãî ñâîèìè êàðòèíàìè, âûøèâêàìè, çàíàâåñàìè, ùèòàìè, ìå÷àìè ïî ñòåíàì...
Çåëåíûé è Óæàñòíûé : Áîãåí ïèøåò: Ïðåâðàùåíèå àíãëèéñêîãî â ðóññêèé - äëÿ íåêîòîðûõ íåðàçðåøèìàÿ ïðîáëåìà. Äà, äåáèëêî. Íîðìàëüíûå ëþäè çíàþò, ÷òî ýòî ðàçíûå ÿçûêè, è äàæå óìåþò ïåðåâîäèòü ñ îäíîãî íà äðóãîé èëè îáðàòíî. È òîëüêî ïðèäóðîøíîå ñåíüêî-äåáèëêî ìîæåò ïîâåäàòü ìèðó î ÏÐÅÂÐÀÙÅÍÈÈ àíãëèéñêîãî â ðóññêèé Áîãåí ïèøåò: Noldor - è åäèíñòâåííîå ÷èñëî, è ìíîæåñòâåííîå - îäíîâðåìåííî. Íåêèé ïðîôåññîð ôèëîëîãèè, êîòîðîãî ñåíüêî-äåáèëêî òàê è íå îñèëèëî, ñ÷èòàë èíà÷å Ó íåãî åä.÷. - noldo, vala, elda, à ìí.÷. - noldor, valar, eldar. Íî äëÿ äåáèëîöåòèíîâ-óáîãåíîâ ýòî ñòðîãî çàñåêðå÷åíî Áîãåí ïèøåò: Elf - è ìóæñêîé ðîä, è æåíñêèé. Äåáèëêî-ñåíüêî òðàíñâåñòèòíîå íå çíàåò, ÷òî ñ ãðàììàòè÷åñêèì ïîíÿòèåì ðîäà â ñîâðåìåííîì àíãëèéñêîì ÿçûêå. À íîðìàëüíûå ëþäè â êóðñå, ÷òî îíî òàì îòñóòñòâóåò íå òîëüêî ó ñëîâà elf. Íî òû, óáîãåí, íå ñòåñíÿéñÿ - âåäü òîüêî íåäîó÷êè çíàêîìû ñî âñÿêèìè òàì ñëîâàðÿìè è ñïðàâî÷íèêàìè, ãðàììàòèêàìè è ñèíòàêñèñàìè! À Èñòèííûå Çíàòîêè Äåáèëîöåòèíû òàêèì "ìåëî÷àì" çíà÷åíèÿ íå ïðèäàþò. Òàê ÷òî ïîâåäàé íàì ñâîè Îòêðîâåíèÿ, î Ãóðÿ! Ïðî îáðàùåíèå "ìèññ" ê ðàçâåäåííûì è "ìèññèñ" ê äåâóøêàì. Ïðî "èñêîíûé àíãëèéñêèé", ñóùåñòâîâàâøèé äî ëàòûíè è çíàêîìûé âî âñåì ìèðå òîëüêî óáîãåíó. Ïðî àíãëèéñêîå ñëîâî Finde , êîòîðîå íàì äåáèëîöåòèí äàâíî óæå ñîáèðàëñÿ îòêðûòü, äà âîò âñå äî ñèõ ïîð íå ñîáðàëñÿ Ïðî òî, ÷òî ñëîâî "hop" íà ñàìîì äåëå îçíà÷àåò äàâëåíèå", à ãëóïûå àíãëè÷àíå è àìåðèêàíöû ñâîé ñîáñòâåííûé ÿçûê íå çíàþò, çàáûâ ñïðîñèòü ñîâåòà ó äåáèëêè-ñåíüêè. Ïðî çíàìåíèòûõ ôèíñêèõ âèêèíãîâ è ïðèøåñòâèå áðåòîíöåâ â Àíãëèþ. Ïðîñèì, ïðîñèì, ïðîñèì!!!
Ðóñàëêà_íà_îáó÷åíèè: Áîãåí ïèøåò: È ìû äåëàåì èç ýòîãî âûâîä, ÷òî íàóãðèìû âðîäå Ìèìà - äåéñòâèòåëüíî îáèòàëè â Ñðåäèçåìüå äî ëþäåé, è äî ýëüôîâ. Íåà. Íå ìîãëè îíè ïðîáóäèòüñÿ ðàíüøå ýëüôîâ. Ýðó Èëëóâàòàð òàê çàâåùàë. Áîãåí ïèøåò: È âîçìîæíî, ÷òî èìåííî îíè ïîñòðîèëè è Íàðãîòðîíä. Ôèíðîä ãíîì, êàê ïèòü äàòü ãíîì.Áîãåí ïèøåò: Noldor - è åäèíñòâåííîå ÷èñëî, è ìíîæåñòâåííîå - îäíîâðåìåííî. Ýòî êàê? Áîãåí ïèøåò: Ìû îáëàäàåì Ïðàâîì ïîíèìàòü è èíòåðïðåòèðîâàòü òåðìèí ñ ÷óæîãî ÿçûêà òàê, êàê õîòèì. À âîò ÿ õî÷ó èíòåðïðåòèðîâàòü èíñòðóêöèþ ê õîëîäèëüíèêó êàê ýïè÷åñêóþ ñàãó î êîòàõ-óáèéöàõ, ñðàæàþùèõñÿ ñ ãèãàíòñêèìè êóêóðóçèíàìè çà ìàëåíüêóþ ïëàíåòó â îòäàëåííîé ãàëàêòèêå èëè êàê ëþáîâíûé ðîìàí.
Foggi: Ðóñàëêà_íà_îáó÷åíèè ïèøåò: Ôèíðîä ãíîì, êàê ïèòü äàòü ãíîì. Ïåùåðû â ñêàëàõ - ñóùåñòâîâàëè è äî Ôèíðîäà. À êòî èõ òàì âûðóáèë ñâîèìè ìîëîòêàìè, åñëè íå ãíîìû? Ãîðàçäî èíòåðåñíåå âîïðîñ: à ïî÷åìó òîãäà (åñëè ïðèíÿòü âðåñèþ ãíîìîâ-ñòðîèòåëåé Íàðãîòðîíäà è Õåëüìîâûõ Ïåùåð) îíè îòòóäà óøëè-òàêè? Ïî÷åìó ïîçâîëèëè êàêèì-òî ýëüôàì çàõâàòèòü ïîòîì èõ èñêîííîå æèëèùå?
Scif: Foggi ïèøåò: Ïåùåðû â ñêàëàõ - ñóùåñòâîâàëè è äî Ôèíðîäà. À êòî èõ òàì âûðóáèë ñâîèìè ìîëîòêàìè, åñëè íå ãíîìû? Îíè (ïåùåðû) è ñàìè ïî ñåáå íåïëîõî îáðàçóþòñÿ.
Ermungand: Foggi ïèøåò: Ïî÷åìó ïîçâîëèëè êàêèì-òî ýëüôàì çàõâàòèòü ïîòîì èõ èñêîííîå æèëèùå? Íîýãèò Íèáèí îáæèëè ýòè ïåùåðû åùå çàäîëãî äî ïðèõîäà Ôèíðîäà. Íî íèãäå íå ñêàçàíî, ÷òî ýòî Ôèíðîä âûæèë èõ îòòóäà: î÷åâèäíî, èõ òàì íå ñòàëî åùå ðàíüøå - âûðîäèëèñü, âûìåðëè âïîëíå åñòåñòâåííûì ïóòåì. Êî âðåìåíè Òóðèíà îñòàëèñü ëèøü Ìèì è äâîå åãî ñûíîâåé. Èì ëè òðîèì ñ êåì-òî âîåâàòü? Ïîçæå Ìèì ïðèøåë â Íàðãîòðîíä è çàâëàäåë ñîêðîâèùàìè (ïðîñòî ïîòîìó, ÷òî íà òîò ìîìåíò îíè îñòàëèñü áåç ïðèñìîòðà). È ãîâîðèë Õóðèíó, ÷òî åãî íàðîä æèë çäåñü ðàíüøå ýëüôîâ, òàê ÷òî, ìîë, òåïåðü âñå çäåñü - åãî... Ïðàâäà, ó Õóðèíà íà ýòîò ñ÷åò îêàçàëîñü äðóãîå ìíåíèå.
Âàìïèð: Ermungand ïèøåò: Íîýãèò Íèáèí îáæèëè ýòè ïåùåðû åùå çàäîëãî äî ïðèõîäà Ôèíðîäà. À çìåé-òî - íå äóðàê, âåðíî ìûñëèò. Ermungand ïèøåò: âûðîäèëèñü, âûìåðëè âïîëíå åñòåñòâåííûì ïóòåì ×òî-òî ÿ íå ïðèïîìíþ ó Òîëêèíà íè ñòðî÷êè ïðî Âûðîäèëèñü è Âûìåðëè. Äàæå íàîáîðîò - êàê êèíóë Ìèì ïðîêëÿòèå íà çîëîòî Íàðãîòðîíäà, òàê âñå öàðñòâî Òèíãîëà âìåñòå ñ Ìåëèàí ïîä íîæ ãíîìîâ òåì ñàìûì ïîäâåë.
Âàìïèð: Òàê ÷òî Ãíîìüÿ Ìàãèÿ - îêàçàëàñü ïîñèëüíåå äàæå Ìàéàðñêîé.
Ermungand: Âàìïèð ïèøåò: Äàæå íàîáîðîò - êàê êèíóë Ìèì ïðîêëÿòèå íà çîëîòî Íàðãîòðîíäà À Ìèì åãî ïðîêëèíàë? Íàóãëàìèð, ê ïðèìåðó, ïðîêëÿë ïåðåä ñìåðòüþ ïðåäâîäèòåëü ãíîìîâ èç Íîãðîäà. Âàìïèð ïèøåò: Òàê ÷òî Ãíîìüÿ Ìàãèÿ - îêàçàëàñü ïîñèëüíåå äàæå Ìàéàðñêîé. "Ëèøü èç ëþáâè ê Ýëüâý Ñèíãîëëî ïðèíÿëà îíà îáëèê Ñòàðøèõ Äåòåé Èëóâàòàðà è ñîþçîì òåì íàëîæèëà íà ñåáÿ ïëîòñêèå îêîâû Àðäû.  ýòîì îáëèêå îíà ðîäèëà Òèíãîëó Ëþòèýí Òèíóâèýëü è â ýòîì æå îáëèêå îáðåëà âëàñòü íàä âåùåñòâîì Àðäû; è äîëãîå âðåìÿ Çàâåñà Ìåëèàí õðàíèëà Äîðèàò îò ëèõà. Òåïåðü æå Òèíãîë áûë ìåðòâ, è äóõ åãî óøåë â ÷åðòîãè Ìàíäîñà; à ñ åãî ñìåðòüþ èçìåíèëàñü è Ìåëèàí" (ñ) Ñèëüìàðèëëèîí (ïåð. Í. Ýñòåëü) Èç ýòîãî ìîæíî çàêëþ÷èòü, ÷òî íå "ãíîìñêîé ìàãèåé" Ìåëèàí áûëà èçãíàíà. Îíà ïðåáûâàëà â Äîðèàòå ðàäè Òèíãîëà: íå ñòàëî åãî - ó Ìåëèàí óæå íå áûëî ðåçîíà îñòàâàòüñÿ. À êòî è êàê óáèë Òèíãîëà - â ýòîì ñëó÷àå íå ñòîëü âàæíî.
ãíóñíàÿ ïàäëà: Ermungand ïèøåò: "Ëèøü èç ëþáâè ê Ýëüâý Ñèíãîëëî ïðèíÿëà îíà îáëèê Ñòàðøèõ Äåòåé Èëóâàòàðà è ñîþçîì òåì íàëîæèëà íà ñåáÿ ïëîòñêèå îêîâû Àðäû.  ýòîì îáëèêå îíà ðîäèëà Òèíãîëó Ëþòèýí Òèíóâèýëü è â ýòîì æå îáëèêå îáðåëà âëàñòü íàä âåùåñòâîì Àðäû; è äîëãîå âðåìÿ Çàâåñà Ìåëèàí õðàíèëà Äîðèàò îò ëèõà. Òåïåðü æå Òèíãîë áûë ìåðòâ, è äóõ åãî óøåë â ÷åðòîãè Ìàíäîñà; à ñ åãî ñìåðòüþ èçìåíèëàñü è Ìåëèàí" (ñ) Ñèëüìàðèëëèîí (ïåð. Í. Ýñòåëü)
Ìîððîíä: Ermungand ïèøåò: À Ìèì åãî ïðîêëèíàë? Íàóãëàìèð, ê ïðèìåðó, ïðîêëÿë ïåðåä ñìåðòüþ ïðåäâîäèòåëü ãíîìîâ èç Íîãðîäà. Íå óñïåë îí íè÷åãî ïðîêëÿñòü. Îí óñåðäíî ïûòàëñÿ âûìîëèòü æèçíü ó Õóðèíà. Íå óäàëîñü. =) Âàìïèð ïèøåò: ×òî-òî ÿ íå ïðèïîìíþ ó Òîëêèíà íè ñòðî÷êè ïðî Âûðîäèëèñü è Âûìåðëè. Silm. Ch.21 "Of Túrin Turambar": . They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. Foggi ïèøåò: Ïåùåðû â ñêàëàõ - ñóùåñòâîâàëè è äî Ôèíðîäà. À êòî èõ òàì âûðóáèë ñâîèìè ìîëîòêàìè, åñëè íå ãíîìû? Ñì. ïðåäûäóùóþ öèòàòó. Íîýãèò Íèáèí íàøëè ïåùåðû è ðàñøèðèëè èõ. À âîîáùå, ÷òî-òî áðåä ãóðó ñòàë ñîâñåì ñêó÷íûì è íåèíòåðåñíûì.
Êîð Ôàýðîí:
Âàìïèð: Ermungand ïèøåò: À Ìèì åãî ïðîêëèíàë? À ìû è íå ñëûøàëè?! http://tolkien.su/wiki/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BC http://eressea.ru/library/public/naugl.shtml Âêðàòöå: Ìèì ïðîêëÿë çîëîòî è áûë óáèò Õóðèíîì. Çîëîòî ïîïàëî â Äîðèàò. Ìåëèàí ïîñîâåòîâàëà âûáðîñèòü åãî â ðåêó, êàê õðàíÿùåå ñòðàøíîå ïðîêëÿòèå. Òèíãîë - íå ïîñëóøàë. Ïðèøëè ãíîìû è âûçâàëèñü ñäåëàòü èç ýòîãî çîëîòà äðàãîöåííûå âåùè. Èì ìàëî çàïëàòèëè çà ðàáîòó. Îíè ïðèøëè äîìîé è ïîæàëîâàëèñü, ÷òî ýëüôû èõ îáåñ÷åñòèëè. Ãíîìû - âîçìóòèëèñü, âîîðóæèëèñü, ïðèøëè, ðàçîðèëè Äðèàò, óáèëè Òèíãîëà. Ìåëèàí - óøëà â Âàëèíîð, çàãèïíîòèçèðîâàâ âñåõ îêðóæàþùèõ ãíåâíûì âçãëÿäîì. Êîãäà ãíîìû íåñëè çîëîòî ê ñåáå, íà íèõ íàïàëè àâàðè ñ Áåðåíîì âî ãëàâå, ïåðåáèëè âñåõ, óòîïèëè-òàêè çîëîòî â ðåêå.
ïîëíàÿ âåðñèÿ ñòðàíèöû